Unsecured Lending Risk Management: The State of Lending in the U.S. and Canada with Frank Tian

In the digital era, personal lending products emerge daily from various banks, credit unions, and fintech companies. When it comes to the U.S. and Canadian markets, it is critical to understand the full credit lifecycle of lending and risk management to remain agile and competitive. 

While the countries may share a border and many similarities, they have several significant differences. In this episode of The Lending Link, we sit down with credit risk specialist and author of Unsecured Lending Risk Management, Frank Tian, to dive deeper into how these markets have evolved over the past 20 years and delve into their discrepancies within the lending market. 

Frank and Rich also discuss a variety of topics, such as: 

  • The making of the book Unsecured Lending Risk Management 
  • The booming of Fintechs and Big Tech’s interest in banking 
  • A forecast on 2023’s economy, will it continue to improve? 
  • And examine the value of open banking data 


Show Notes: 

  • To purchase Unsecured Lending Risk Management, visit here. 
  • Are you looking to further your consumer lending education? Lending Link Listeners receive a discounted rate for Frank’s Consumer Lending Risk Management Essentials Course. Enter GDSLink at the time of checkout to receive the $50 off (25% discount). Learn more here. 

About Frank Tian: 

Frank Tian is a seasoned risk management professional in the unsecured lending industry. His work over the past two decades has spanned the full spectrum of retail risk management, from credit strategy and risk modeling to credit systems and fraud management. Frank has held various risk positions at multiple financial institutions in the US and Canada, including Wells Fargo, MUFG Union Bank, GE Money, BMO and CIBC. He holds a Master’s Degree in Economics from the University of Ottawa and is a certified Financial Risk Manager (FRM).

Be sure to follow Frank and our host Rich on LinkedIn, and for the latest GDS Link updates and news, follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn. You can subscribe to the Lending Link on Apple PodcastsSpotifyGoogle Play, YouTube or wherever you prefer to listen to your podcasts!

English Transcript

Please note: This transcript was compiled automatically via Otter.AI and may include typos and errors the artificial intelligence did not pick up correctly.

Rich Alterman 00:04
You're syncing up and tuning in to The Lending Link Podcast, powered by GDS link. With a modern day lender can dive deeper into the future of data decisioning and Credit Risk Solutions Welcome to the show everyone. I'm your host, Rich Alterman and on this episode of The Lending Link, we're sitting down with Frank Tian, a credit risk specialist and author of the book "Unsecured Lending Risk Management", who is currently a risk lead with H&R block's mobile banking platform Spruce. Frank has worked for over two decades at multiple banks and non bank institutions in the US and Canada. Frank's work has spanned the full spectrum of retail risk management, from credit strategy and risk modeling to credit systems and loss forecasts. Frank holds a Master's of Economics from the University of Ottawa, and a Bachelor of Science in Finance and Banking for the Northeast University of Finance and Economics in China. In this episode, Frank and I are going to spend some time talking about his book, differences in the lending market between the US and Canada; changes in the lending landscape over the past two decades and so much more. A link to access Frank's book can be found in the podcast show notes, but first, please head over to GDS Link LinkedIn and Twitter pages at GDS Link and hit those like and follow buttons. And please be sure to subscribe to The Lending Link on Apple's podcast, Spotify or wherever you prefer to listen to your podcast. All right, now let's get synced, with GDS Link. Good afternoon, Frank and welcome.

Frank Tian 01:38
Oh, thank you Rich, good afternoon.

Rich Alterman 01:40
And where are you joining us from today.

Frank Tian 01:42
Today I'm joining you from the great white north, the Home to Raptors and the Maple Leaf, Toronto, Canada.

Rich Alterman 01:42
Okay, do you have any snow on the ground up there today?

Frank Tian 01:51
Just a bit from last two days. It has been a warm winter so far. We don't have the outdoor rink setup yet.

Rich Alterman 01:59
Before we get started. On the business side, I always like to ask my guests a personal question. And I understand that you're poker enthusiasts enjoying Texas Hold'em and other variants? What got you started in poker and how do you feel your mathematic skills have helped you at the poker table? Or have they?

Frank Tian 02:16
Yeah, high cost started. That was probably in early 2000, 2003, 2004. The WPT, they published a few episodes on TV, featuring their final tables for several large tournaments. So they leverage the technology at that time. They put a small camera in the rear of the poker table, so you can see the poker cards of players. So that was the first time people can get inside of what the players has, what's their strategy, how they approach that. So I find this very interesting, the game didn't seem too hard. I got caught on many periods at that time, depending on your goal, I'm going to have a fun today with friends or if the group is friendly. I want to sit down with them. And also for tournament, right. So, in some tournament it is hard to just take too much break. In some other tournaments, they offer you slow structure, so you can better showcase your skills. I think that's a good decision you want to make before you even start the game. So, I think it's a still a fun game. I don't get to play too often these days, you know, there is family and work. But still, maybe a few times a year, we get together with a couple of friends, you know, play over with a beer. That's fun.

Rich Alterman 03:36
Thinking about Texas Hold'em where you have the cards down, face down that you don't know what they are, as we think about digital lending, right? It's the same type of thing where I don't know what that consumer really looks like behind the screen. And I need to incorporate different products to make sure that, that person really is who they say they are, and make sure I have the right tool. So we'll talk about that a little later. So thanks for sharing some of that insight. The fact that you're still sitting here with me today tells me that you might not be a great poker player, because otherwise, you'd be doing your own thing. But let's get started by talking a little more about your career. You just touched on what you're doing today. But you've been in the space for 20 years now. Can you just share some of your background, maybe some of the companies that you've worked for, and maybe also talk about some of the challenging projects that you've had in your career that you look back on them, you're proud of what you really accomplished?

Frank Tian 04:26
So I started my career as a risk analyst with one of the oldest retailers in Canada, called the Hudson's Bay Company. It's actually older than Canada itself. At that time, many retailers they still own their own credit card portfolio. Just remember a credit card starts with retailer right? So basically, it's a plastic IOU receipt. Then, before the subprime crisis in around 2005 and 2006, there was a challenge in the industry, the banks, they approach to this retailer seeing that let us help you. So we're doing this for a day and we know how to land. We have the cheap funding, so our cost is really low. You do what you're supposed to do merchandising, you know, so sell the best merchandise to consumers, we'll share the revenue and profit. So that seems quite good proposal at that time. That's the other big banks, they bought up all the major credit card portfolios in the US and Canada. So I move on with the portfolio into GE Money. That's today's Synchrony. So I workedthere for a few years. Then the subprime hits, I move on to work for a couple full service Canadian banks, CIBC, BMO, there, I got to learn other lending products like alliances and loans over to draft. I got to see how lending products fit into this full service customer relationship. Right. So in the banking model, in 2015, I decided to explore a different market, broaden my horizon. Naturally USA is close, very similar to Canada in culture, but yet different. So I worked for Wells Fargo for less than two years, then Union Bank of California for five years and most recently, with H&R Block, helping them launch their new bank platform Spruce. In terms of the challenging projects, I think every experience has its own unique challenge. For example, the Wells Fargo I worked for their retailer portfolio right? So the challenge at that time was to: how do you make sure that the corporate function can reveal this dynamically fast growing portfolio and understand that right, so the bank was also building the three last defense. But you have the 7 billion portfolio versus 30 to 50 different retailers in furniture, jewelry, house financing. So it's very different than the 97 billion bank card portfolio. It's an interesting experience to build some framework out there, some dashboards to help the corporate o really understand that in time.

Rich Alterman 07:18
It was going to get down to business now. And you know, as you know, my initial catalyst for reaching out to you was a result of me having read your book on Secured Lending Risk Management, A Practitioner's Guide. As someone who has been in the credit industry for 40 years now, I feel the book does a great job of really laying out a foundation for understanding the full credit lifecycle of lending and credit risk management. A couple of things: Number one is, can you share what made you decide to write the book, how long it took you? And what did you learn about authoring a book like this along the way, but I am going to give you an opportunity first. You know, I have the book right in front of me. You know, you're dedicated to your grandmother, your great aunt and maybe just give us a real brief on why you made the dedication to her.

Frank Tian 07:59
When my father was young, around four years old, his biological parents, my biological, grandpa, grandma, they got sick with the regional epidemic. Unfortunately, they pass away at a young age. Yeah. So then actually, my father's uncle, his dad's younger brother, and the wife took him and his sister under their wings, then they grew up with wisdom. So in my book, this great aunt, she's my grandmother with I grew up. I spend all the time with her with my other uncle's aunts. And so with my cousins, it's really a big family. And I wrote a book during the pandemic, right. So I think it's, it's the same thing, the human being, we live through this crisis, time over time. But if we really work together, so care about each other, that's how we carry through this just because of the timing, just because of the way I grew up. So I dedicated the book to my great aunt, which I call the grandmother. So yeah, unfortunately, right now she's battling with COVID. Right now, you might know that there's a big wave hitting China right now. So I'm sending all the prayers to her, and all the family members there, hopefully they all recover soon.

Rich Alterman 09:26
You mentioned working for Wells Fargo. So we know that you've worked in Canada, and the US, you know, we have clients at GDS, at both Canada and the US and there's obviously some nuances. In fact, Quebec just rolled out the requirement to be able to freeze a credit report. They've been doing that in the US now for quite some time. I was actually surprised that it didn't exist in Canada. So when you think about it and of course in Canada, you have Quebec versus other parts of the country, and there's some differences there as well. Any interesting tidbits, highlights when people think about credit in the US when they think about credit in Canada, where there may be some things that are really different in the approach, or are things more the same?

Frank Tian 10:04
Yeah, the US market is very similar. But yet there are differences, I will maybe highlight a couple of things. The US market in general is very competitive. I think it has something to do the fact that they're just financial institutions. So 4000 banks, or 5000 credit unions, many Fintechs versus Canada, when you look at most financial categories, they are dominated by the Big Five Canadian banks. But then, of course, there are some other players in the fintechs in recent years. And also the blessed relation is different. For example, in the US, you can do prescreen so I can target other customers, right? So approach them versus in Canada, you cannot do that. So that's the reason the Canadian banks, they focus a lot on the cross sell to their internal customers. Can you imagine that it' s different, 22% population is always promised that very pro consumer, more progressive, you have to treat that province, always differently. Also, the language is different, right. So yeah, so I think as a result of that, I will say in the US, you might see some more aggressive businesses behaviors. Take overdraft, for example, you used to see the fee up to about $30. So, comparison with Canadian banks, they charged $5 plus 18% APR, which is more reasonable. That's the reason, you know, last year all the US banks recently pressure from the challengers, consumer advocacy, even regulators maybe need to lower that fee. I think it's a good thing for consumers. But again, overall, I think both markets, they have their good things we can learn from each other, especially in recent years. I'm glad to see they are businesses, capital talents, that move across borders, in both ways. I think that's a good thing, right? We look at other industries performing arts, professional sports, you have some good results. For example, I like to tell people that in 2019, Toronto Raptors won the NBA championship. But when you look at the roster is basically a team of American players. In the same year, St. Luis Blues won the Stanley Cup. So that's a bunch of Canadian. So you're able to generate some pretty impressive results when you combine the best from both countries.

Rich Alterman 12:37
Any thoughts on why they don't allow prescreen?

Frank Tian 12:40
Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe they just want to build a barrier. So let's not waste time resources on each other. Pushing back and forth. So that could be thinking I'm speculating here.

Rich Alterman 12:52
Interesting. You've written a book. You've been in the space now for 20 years. I've been in the space now for 40 years. And this is a question that comes up on several of the podcast, and you know, I often say to people that when we look at underwriting in general, the process of underwriting really has not changed in the last 40 years that I've been in the industry, fundamentally, you're making a decision about a person, you want to make the right decision, you want to make a profitable decision. So you know, when you think about what you've seen, in the last 20 years, what would you say are some of the most significant changes? And have they all been for the good? or have there been some changes maybe that haven't been for the good?

Frank Tian 13:29
Yeah, if I look back at the past 20 years, I think there are two trends I would generalize: First one is this disintegration. When you look at the global banks, they are gradually accepting that stage, for example, Citibank, they are accepted from a dozen international markets, then within the US, you have for example, MUFG just so that Union Bank. In Canada, you have HSBC that still have their Canadian franchise, it's just becomes harder to operate everywhere, it's not applicable anymore. Another example is that you see the booming of Fintechs, they started as a niche player focusing on some pinpoints deposit landing or payment that could occur up to something big or even being small, but collectively, they are taking some market shares from incumbent banks price, the result is that you see many more players participants right the market is becoming more desintegrated. At the same time, I will say reversing trend is also happening . So, I call the reintegration because when the global banks they left a certain market, some people will pick up what they are left with right? So, US bank just picks up the Union Bank and RBC in Canada picks up HSBC Canada. So, those franchise , the branches are still very valuable assets, right? So people want to meet with some financial advisors talk about the important decisions. I think that interaction is valid more after pandemic, and also the banking in generates business as scale, right? It takes you, for example, 15 people to manage a 1 billion portfolio, when that portfolio tripled in size, you don't necessarily need to triple your staff by three times. Another example is you see the Fintechs, especially given the current macro environment when you realize they cannot survive on their own. So they're looking to consolidate with each other and form partnerships with other banks. There's really two, it's a marriage of the best of the two. Right? So they can leverage technology doing the underwriting, the banks can offer the cheap funding. It's basically integrates certain components, but not under one roof, it's under two. I think that's a two trends that are driving our ecosystem in different directions right now.

Rich Alterman 16:12
That is interesting when you mentioned the value of the branch network. I mean, isn't that really something that's generational, Gen Z's may never stepped foot into actual branch. So, isn't the value of that asset going to be declining over time?

Frank Tian 16:28
Yeah, you could think that way. But meanwhile, you also see that some players before they didn't have the brand presence, they began to invest in certain brands like a Capital One, right? So they opened the Capital One Café, right? They even open that up to non customer, I think it's a great way to market the brand to people: Even if you're not my customer, but at least, you know that physically I exist. So let's create an impression so that on this brand at some point in time, you can use my products and services.

Rich Alterman 17:04
So you talked about the banks, you talked about fintech. So that's a nice segue into banking as a service, right? It's obviously a hot topic right now. It's interesting. If I were to talk to a couple different people and say: What is banking as a service? I'm going to get a couple of different answers. So what would you consider banking as a service? And where do you see that going to move forward the rest of this year and beyond?

Frank Tian 17:27
First, Bank and service to me, its business model, right? So you have some nonbank entities could be FinTech could be a could be Ecommerce Platform, but they want to offer certain financial products to their consumers. Then, the way they do it right now is that they partner with regulatory bank. So the bank can stay behind the scene, and do all the compliance risk management stuff right, then offer the products and services through these nonbank entities to consumers. So when we look at this, it's just the modern version of retail credit card. Right? We both are very familiar with it. Back in the day, the difference is that the banks work with retailers, the banks are managing the everything right? Those retailers are purely upfront. But in the modern days because of the technology, or the Westmont, some Fintechs, they try to do some of the work origination on their own. Okay, so that's the reason you'll see some varient in some banks Fintechs or Bank Number Partnerships at the bank that does a lot. In some cases, the other party, the number aka entity, they do a lot of things. So that's still no standard model yet. But the question is, does everybody understand what they need to do? So can they build a consensus about what you do for each other? And make sure that all the right things are being done? So that's certainly the concern from regulators are you guys, Industry observers, I can see that some banks, maybe just offer their balance sheet as a parking lot, right? They don't do anything. They just let the financial process flow through. So that's definitely not what we want to see. So we still want the best bank for us to do whatever you're supposed to do. That's your portfolio. Then you have seen that the regulator's finally pay attention to this issue. Last year, you have the restrictive agreement, so people were questioning Oh, does that mean that tells us they wanted to get into the day to day operation of FinTech company or the bank? So I don't think so. I think that's just a precedent set by the regulator. But again, we heard the speech from OCC Chief, that report from the Treasury right after on the back number, the partnership, even the two Fed officials from both the Democratic and Republican parties, they have the consensus on this issue. You know, they don't have a lot of consensus. They know that we need to do something about this pattern and that the partnership will make sure they are under the proper regulatory framework.

Rich Alterman 20:26
Having worked for Teletrac you know, the first subprime credit bureau, several of the clients there, had adopted the bank model, and they partner up with banks, and then you had that get adopted within the market FinTech space. So there's always that concern, are you simply renting a charter? And that's a lot of what those conversations are taking place. So, certainly those relationships benefit, from the fact that a lot of these banks have older legacy technology, right? It's harder to pivot that when people call it technical debt, where the fintechs are able to bring more current technology to the table. And that Fintech is maybe a broad definition, GDS link, we're not a lender, but one might consider our technology, is FinTech like, if you will, we obviously work with a lot of the fintechs. And we work with banks, it's gonna be interesting to see how those relationships continue to evolve. And, you know, another hot topic today, By Now Pay Later, that's another one that you can't escape. When we think about big tech, getting into the banking space on the Buy Now Pay Later, you have Amazon as a product, Apple as a product Pay Pal as a product. Walmart just announced their partnership with one FinTech with a rolling out of Buy Now Pay Later. So you know, when we think about big tech, what do you see in the future? As far as Amazon, Apple, Facebook, do you think that they're really going to aggressively get into the banking space, given the footprint that they have with so many consumers?

Frank Tian 21:54
Yeah, that's definitely an important question to many people in the industry or outside the industry. I think the today's big topic, because they grew up with the digital information for every consumer, so it's in their DNA to expand their business and relies into consumer finance, they have that internal drive. But however, when you look at strategically, he might not make sense further. For example, Google, at one time wanted to launch their checking account, they even signed agreement with a dozen banks. But two years later, they realized that, by opening accounts for some banks, I will piss off some other banks, who will be using my cluoud business. So the cloud business is a team and as a major business for Google. So then decide, okay, it's not worth it. So they gave up that checking account project. So Facebook, they wanted to launch global coin, the Libra three years ago, I don't think Mark Zuckerberg has realize that this is an issue of global currency and competing with other central banks. So that was a no go from the very beginning. So I'm even surprised it took that allow for Facebook to realize that, so they downgrade that global coin project to a US stable coin. But even that didn't fly. Because as a financial service institution, you need to have that trust from consumers, from regulators, just because of the Facebook's records. It was so bad, they had a change of their own name right to Meta. They essentially given up their project altogether. So I think these are examples that the big tech, they are very capable of doing a lot of things. But should you do it? Because you can do it? Right? So are you trying to cover every business on the planet? I don't think so. Right? Also, when you look at the apple, they're entering the final paper space, I'm not sure it's a good move, but because they are using their own money to learn, put on their own balance sheet. But as a tech company, their current return on equity is very high. So a bank industry the return on equity is very low, right in the teens. So tech company, you can earn four times the return on equity, then you focus more on humanity and more great to tech products. Because I don't see Apple keep releasing different sides of iPhone every year, unless this is something new. So I think the big tech, definitely, they have the capability. But again, I think from a strategy perspective, I am questioning whether they should be in this space.

Rich Alterman 24:44
Interesting. I mean, analogy there would be even for the fintechs to think about when they were starting up. They had to buy versus build decision to make right do they partner up with somebody like a GDS link for decisioning? Or do they build their own and I think you have had a lot of debates between the technical group saying, hey, we want to build it ourselves, would that help our long long term value as a company because we own our own IP, whereas the business side is saying, yeah, but if we wait for you to build it, it's gonna be another three or four years. And let's do what we do well, and building risk management technology may not be what we do well. So we deal with that all the time at GDS is you know, build versus buy. And there's a lot of good studies out there that show the value of one over the other. We're living in some very interesting economic times, it's hard to believe that a dozen eggs right now are costing, I saw the other day, I think it was 18 eggs for $8. A year ago on sale at Walmart 12 Eggs was only 24 cents. So the economy is putting a tremendous squeeze on people. Obviously, gas prices are coming down, which is helping, I think we're going to start seeing a softening of the housing market. I think the layoffs we're seeing are going to be more of a white collar phenomena in 2023. But now we just came off the tail of the pandemic, which was, you know, we saw tremendous pull back in the early start of the pandemic. So if you are giving advice to lenders, and thinking about where we may head in 2023, and thinking back to the pandemic, do you feel things could get as bad as what we saw during the pandemic? Or do you feel that it's gonna be less of a degree, and we'll get through it without as many bruises? Before you answer that question. I was reading your post on LinkedIn, you made a comment about banks are accelerating the reserve building. And inflation is maybe pulling off a little bit, but you wrote: "The signals are pointing to the increased odds of a soft landing". So with that in mind, I'm going to like, help feed your answer a little bit, because obviously, you're saying that things may be okay over time.

Frank Tian 26:58
So one thing I look at is always the speed, they increase their loan loss reserves: the allows. So, right now, I think the headline always painting the recession coming, big layoffs, I think that's the nature of the media, right? So only bad news makes news. But I think the things are looking not bad, it's pretty encouraging. Then because we still have a very strong employment market, right? So you have 10 million jobs versus the three years ago pre pandemic, that's a 7 million openings all the time. Then the inflation is coming down, although slowly, but there is a point to downward. That's good. And when you look at the other big banks, they have the best economists. So they have the best talents. They study this every day, they only adjusted reserve a little bit. So just back to the same level we had prepandemic, that's the reason I think we're probably going to be okay. And also because the economy is progressing gradually. It's not like sudden, we fall off the cliff, it is never like that. So with that being said, I think as lenders, we need to be prepared to deal with different scenarios, of course, you need to have your own document. My view is that we're in a time that consumers they need to have, so especially for some they need to borrow to have them go through this period, based on your clientele. So based on your products, if there's a fit, you can have them. That'd be great, happy to build that relationship and to carry it long term. At the same time, I think we have to be vigilant on what's coming. One thing we learn from a pandemic is that fiscal could change quickly. It's almost like you can plan to a certain degree, but how do you react to the current development, that's more important. As long as you have all the toolkits ready, you have your system, your programs ready, be able to handle different scenarios quickly. I think that's always recommended from a risk management perspective.

Rich Alterman 29:10
Yeah, I think where there's a lot of opportunity for using tech is in the collection's space, right? So lenders can be smarter about how they collect, what counts to collect, how they optimize their finite resources, human capital, as it is getting harder to hire people. That's an opportunity for lenders to further exploit technology. Going back to pandemic in the current economy, one of my big fears, and you mentioned what's going on in China, is that we may see big hits again to our supply chain. And that's going to drive prices up. Maybe even head back in the other direction. I think the Feds are talking about another rate increase to cool down inflation. Time will tell but my personal feeling is we still have some rough times ahead. You know, hopefully we'll get through it this year. Let's talk a little bit about open banking data. Certainly you know that then I think one of the big changes in the credit market, you look at companies like Prism, they did a study where they showed that for peddle, they were able to increase the approval rate by 35%. So it's definitely helping the underbanked and the US, we're seeing strong adoption, what are your thoughts on how valuable open bank data is to complement traditional data? And also, are you seeing the same type of use in Canada as you are seeing here in the US?

Frank Tian 30:35
I think, definitely, the open banking provides additional data for decisions, right? So if you can increase your approval rate by not even 35%, right, just the 5%, or even even 2% for a large business, that translates big impact on your bottom line, I think there's a still a lot of use cases, not only for the smaller institutions, so right now, the FinTech, they use a multiple search solutions just because of the their clientele, but even for the incumbent banks. So today, I know many of them, they use their internal bank information, but also, your customer might not bank this to you, you can still use that to help, not only your application, but also for account management, line management, even collections. There is the greater use case. And I see the opportunities are there for both US and Canada. In Canada, there's also open banking a solution provider, like Frank's similar to the Plaid. So you'll want to see more companies, they're able to leverage that raw data, right? So from open banking, and practice that in a way, that easy to consume, then feed it into the synergent easily, like, GDS Link or some other risk engines. I think the opportunities are definitely there.

Rich Alterman 32:04
Yeah I know, it's definitely been a big lift, I think, and you mentioned collections, I think about settlement is a great opportunity to leverage open banking data, maybe where that person who hasn't permission themselves on the front end. But you say, hey, you can participate in our seminar program, but you have to permission yourself into open banking so we can get a better view of what you look like. So before we wrap any thoughts and insights on what the banking environment or lending environment more importantly, looks like in China, anything you could share there that might be interesting to the audience.

Frank Tian 32:36
Chinese market is interesting. So many people did not notice that in the past decade, they just went through a huge experimental phase. Almost they try everything, every kind of a financial innovation in that space, because of the landscape is that their traditional banks, very conservative. So that left a lot of space for the newcomers. And also, at that time, the federal government, they want to leverage the new technology internet based smartphone to propel the growth of economy. So they were very open about the innovation in the consumer finance period. So I was actually shocked when I saw what's happening back in 2018. When I made the trip back to visit family and friends, the regulators, they are very careful. And also plus the pandemic. I think right now the lending, there is a pretty tight, but I imagine at some point in time, they have to open up again, to provide the much needed credit to have the economy to flow again.

Rich Alterman 33:45
Last question for you, thinking about some of the younger audience, we may have listened to our podcast, any career advice you'd give them as far as maneuvering through the financial services industry,

Frank Tian 33:56
The way I look at the things you need to launch your career there are three components so: Why is the technical knowledge? Why is the communication skills and the last thing is: The business Know How. So technology, it's like programming skills or accounting, financial analysis skills. I think that the young generation are already there, in tune with the latest tools available. They still have to put in the effort to learn that and communication skills seeking in the US/Canada. The kids are growing up with a lot of training on that. So when I look at that my son, he's a much of the was the implantation compared to me, like at that age But business knowledge that the business know how, I think it's something I will highly recommend the young people trying to put in time to study because that's not taught anywhere. And at the end of the day, you will be working in a particular industry, solving the problem. So it doesn't have much if you drive a flashy car, but you don't know where to go. I think that's probably the reason I read books is also keeping the young people in mind because technology could change, right? So we have a new analytical tools models, but the fundamentals really doesn't change that much. If one day we all go to Mars, so we all communicate the visa Tana instead of your smartphone, as long as you land. So you should expect to pay that back right with interest, so the fundamental doesn't change.

Rich Alterman 35:37
Well, Frank, thank you very much for joining us today. This is Rich Alterman, we've been synching up with Frank Tiaan, author and leader in the unsecured lending space. As a partying gift, Frank has been generous in offering a special discount on his Consumer Lending Risk Management Essentials course for The Lending Link listeners. Head over to the show notes to find the purchase link for the course and be sure to enter GDS Link at the time of checkout to receive a $50 off/25% discount. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, Google, or wherever you listen to your podcast. And be sure to leave us a review. Follow us on LinkedIn and connect with us on Twitter at GDS Link that's at GDS LINK. You have a question for the show or have a specific topic you want us to cover. Hit the link in the description to drop us a note. Thank you for lending us a part of your day. Make it a great one.

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